Posts by Sea Breeze

30

Internal Watchtower Statistics Re: Disfellowshipping and Shunning

by NotFormer in

does the wt have a person/department/section tasked with compiling data and analysing it statistically.

or have they started doing something like that now that they are hiring external consultancies?.

i ask the question because i'm wondering if such studies and statistical analysis would show any link between the harshness of the disfellowshipping policy as it is applied and the dropout rate of people within the organisation who have just had enough.. in previous threads it has been pointed out that the old approach isn't effective any more.

Sea Breeze

I have always heard that the disfellowshipped account for around 1% of publishers. 80,000 disgruntled and alienated people per year adds up pretty fast.... even if you consider the return rate at 50%. And, half or more of those are probably PIMO.

So, the number of disfellowshipped and PIMO's due to the DF poilcy could very well be more than active members in just a 15 year period.

The imploding we are seeing is self-inflicted. I told my brother once that the organization will one day close because they will announce that they have disfellowshipped nearly everyone. It was a joke, but he was oddly amused by the statement. I often wonder how many lives he has destroyed in his nearly 50 year career as an elder. He was appointed at age 19.

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Sea Breeze

How else are we to physically experience pain otherwise unless we get a new body?

@Halcon

All we have to go on is the word of God. Since it was freely quoted as true from a man who resurrected himself from the dead, I have sound reason to believe it. He says dead souls can do and experience lots of things..... without a body.

Rev 6 - And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Souls can remember, talk, reason, ask questions, feel emotion, justice and rest. Presumably they can feel pain as well as comfort.

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Sea Breeze

@Halcon

The problem is that Watchtower and the secular world in general think that the term “death” means not functioning…. Lake a dead battery.

However, in biblical theology pertaining to man, the correct definition means “separation” as is defined in Websters 1828 dictionary.

So, Ez. 18:4 is correct. The soul that is sinning will be separated from its body.

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Sea Breeze

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Jesus

VH7 - Both are literal

Glad we cleared that up. Another scripture identifies the nature of the eternal punishment that Jesus repeated warned us about.

Jude 7

Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

That should be the end of discussion for those who do not read into scripture foreign meanings unknown to the apostles and their students.

Once a bible reader goes rogue (symbolic) you can make the scriptures say anything you want. For a powerful demonstration of this truth: JW's have been duped (through the raw power of symbolic interpretation) to do the opposite of what Jesus commanded regarding acceptance of the new covenant "for the forgiveness of sins" in Mt. 26: 27-28

They willingly reject the offer of forgiveness of sins from the Lord and are quite proud of it, even ranting on and on about what a sincere heart they have and how deceived everyone else is because of their pride. That fact is just beyond incredible and sends a chill down my spine everytime I think about it.

There is no possibility of winning a logical argument when the common meanings, definitioins, and plain reading of scripture are all scrambled together and laid out as in a buffet for a pick and choose smorgasborg.

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Sea Breeze

@VH7

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Jesus

Jesus said that hell is just as eternal as heaven is. Are you going to try and claim one part of the sentence is literal and another part of the same sentence is symbolic?

10

Finding Neverland

by Freeorange in

add bookmark.

#1. i have to start off this post by saying i am not intending to insult or offend.

these are just our observations over our entire lives in the org.

Sea Breeze

we sat on her Zoom funeral watching the video of her life nonstop in the ministry while her old husband sobbed and the song “Just around the corner“ played over and over again like a cruel, final joke.

As sad as that is, the reality is, that's as good as it gets. "it is appointed unto man once to die and then judgment" - Hebrews 9: 27

She will be required to explain why she lived a life of rebellion against Jesus when he commanded all to partake of the New Covenant "for the forgiveness of sins" - Mt. 26: 27-28

For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. - Jesus

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Sea Breeze

A sinner in hell does not have zōḗ aiṓnios, only an endless bíos. This distinction is forgotten by the JWs when they argue from the biblical statement that "eternal life," or zōḗ aiṓnios, is the privilege of the saved, then how "the wicked" can exist forever. However, this contrived opposition lacks the requirement of scholarly exegesis and is obviously an eisegesis born out of a compulsion to conform to the annihilationism adopted from Adventists.
The opposite of "eternal life," zōḗ aiṓnios, is not "eternal non-existence" in the sense of annihilation, but "eternal death," where "death" does not mean annihilation but separation from God. Thus, damnation is eternal 'bíos', mere existence without true "life" (zōḗ), i.e., without a relationship with God.

Like a small child that has abused its mother who loves it the most, we have all gone astray and haven't regarded the enormity of God and his creation as something and someone to be cherished and something to be grateful for.

Since our sin is against the eternal goodness of God, our punishment is eternal. Every day for eternity the lost or perished soul will experience existence without any trace of the goodness of God.

This is what Jesus warned people about over and over.

how can ye escape the damnation of hell? - Jesus

It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. - Jesus

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Sea Breeze

Where do you find eternal souls in the Bible?

do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul - Jesus

It does say later that the soul and body can be "destroyed" in Hell, but that greek word also means to lose or perish, but not non existence.

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Sea Breeze

@VH7

Personally, I wish it was as you say is possible. But, I could never preach on that wishful thinking because it is simply not supported in scripture.

If it was just one story, maybe there might be an argument. But when you look at the overwhelming quantity of verses describing conscious punishment to different groups of the wicked in the OT and especially the NT, it is simply not possible to conclude it is anything other than what a plain reading would produce in the mninds of an average reader.

And, getting back to the topic: When you read what the first and second generation believers who were trained by the apostles wrote, then the likelihood of mine and yours wishful thinking being true drops to ZERO.

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Sea Breeze

Firstly, eternal torment of eternal human souls is not found in the New Testament.

@VH7

Jude 7 KJV

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

From the first page of the Bible until the last, Scripture consistently teaches that humans have an immaterial part that will last forever. It is not possible for the soul, or spirit, to be annihilated. So, the only real question is where does the conscious part of us go when we die? That's really all that matters at the end of the day.... or our end of days. The answer is either family-style fellowship with God or the place prepared for the devil and his angels. Those are the only two choices we have. And thanks to God manifest as Jesus of Nazereth, we DO now have a choice.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels - Mt. 25: 41

It is not wise to minimize, discount or ignore the wanrings of a man who said that he would resurrect himself from the dead, and then did it.